Μια εξαιρετική απαντηση σε εμμετικο αρθρο εγγλεζικου blogg απο εναν βορειο ευρωπαίο που βαζει το ζητημα της φασιστικής προπαγανδας που εχει επικρατησει στα Σκοπια στην πραγματικη του διασταση
το blogg ειναι το παρακατω
http://hill.blogactiv.eu/2008/04/07/whats-in-a-name-a-lot-it-seems/#comment-46
και η απαντηση του Σουηδού
Stig Torben Johansen
Comment by Stig Torben Johansen 2008/04/12 at 12:22:12
Richard
Some time back I used to share some of your thoughts.
Not any longer!
I have to say straight away that I strongly now accept that the Greeks have a very valid case!
And I have every reason to believe that most of the upper echelons of Europe fundamentally share this position too! The final communiqué of recent NATO's summit wasn't the result of Greece pressure and all those involved in these knows perfectly well what I am speaking about.
And I suppose it's not rocket science to see why I and others have our changed position. Look in detail how and what the SlvMacs say here! Pay particular attention to the explicit RACIST Connotations openly expressed. Look at their unfounded megalomania! And it's all right if the funny bloke in the Streets of Skopje says so! You may smile and carry on. But Richard these kinds of things go on in much higher places in there! Speaking with officials holding very responsible places I have heard similar things:
How 'historically' is proven beyond reasonable doubt the direct lineage of present day SlavMacs to Alexander the Great. When I questioned them why all Ancient Macedonian always had written in Greek the answer comes back due to the fact they say the Ancient Macedonian knew foreign languages!!!!!!They do believe this cr..p Richard! They do!!!!And when they are probed why such an important civilisation never left a trace of their supposedly own different language they say that they are searching….Still haven't found anything!! LOL. So much so for their Great Macedonian Heritage!!! But they go on and on with this Megalomania which to my opinion would have reached Nazi proportions if it wasn't for their pathetic size and power base! If this wasn't the Balkans one could had stay to the amusing side of things but we have to be extra careful here and we should not allow this fanatical and unfounded behaviour of them to go on any longer!
Their Bulgarian ancestry is another of the much publicised case! You have seen the idiotic answers they give. They speak of Asian and African people with the most debasing of words! Yet they cannot answer straight elementary and basic questions as those posed by Todor! Their Genetic 'studies' proving that the Greeks are Ethiopians is not only an idiotic attempt to prove that the Greeks have no Relation to Hellenes but also speaks volumes of what they think of Africans or the niggers as they routinely referred them! What they are doing with Greek history and heritage is mirrored to what they are doing with Bulgarians. How on earth they mix Bulgarian and Greek history is beyond me and I think to any other sane person in the world! Especially when they claim that both belong to them in the first place!!!!!!!!
Their claims on Human rights are another one of their spurious beliefs. These very people are the 'champions' of the millions of oppressed 'Macedonians' beyond their borders yet they denied basic human rights to all those SlavMacs that happened to be gays, forcefully 'persuade' all those who want to declare themselves ethnically Bulgarians within their borders its not 'wise' to say so! And I haven't spoken about the Albanians yet!
It is well known truth that many Slavmacs that lived in Greece openly collaborated with the Nazis during WW". There are images and there are documents. They have committed well documented atrocities towards the Greek population during the time of Occupation. Particularly towards those Greeks who were refuges from Asia Minor after the 1922 exchange of population between Greece and Turkey. Even today the Slavmacs simply hate this strand of Greeks even though these people came from Hellenistic centres of the East where Ancient Macedonian presence is well documented. Hence these unfortunate people may be the more Macedonians of the lot! Anyway when the fortunes of WW2 changed, all those Slavmacs to save their skins turned communist and under Tito's guidance and support wanted to take the whole Greek Macedonia. Quite naturally Greece resisted and when the fate of their 'experiment' went pear shaped they left Greece to avoid the punishment coming. These were testing times for whole Europe. The numbers involved for those who escaped were of the order of 20-30,000 but quite obviously not the millions they claim. Nor what is left back in Greece are of any significance! Around 10,000 at most! They even now have a political party there called Vino Zito that never managed to get more than few thousands votes (5,000 ?) even though their political agenda was clearly this of 'oppressed Macedonians' . It is also amusing to see in the leadership of Vinho Zito Mr Voskopoulos has a cousin who is district governor of Florina and openly declares himself a Greek as well as Mr Lithoxou who as he says is of Greek- Albanian extraction. Mr Nekratzas another one of theirs is clearly a Greek Refuge from Asia Minor ie one of their supposedly arch enemies! If they were the millions oppressed I am sure you would have seen scenes of Tibet's proportions in the streets of Thessaloniki! So their paranoia on this respect is well substantiated.
It is also funny that all that all those SlavMacs could obtain unlimited access to the Greek Macedonia if they join the EU! And all the obstacles their stubborn and unreasonable behaviour is placing to this path makes us wonder if what they want is civilised access to the Greek Macedonia or creating the framework to claim it as rightfully theirs! We have to be very careful when we express support to them as so far has been translated as an open endorsement of their fantasies.
Richard we are all somehow genetically mixed! The same applies to the old or the moderns. When man meets a woman the outcome is mixed!!! Yet we have no problem to assume and accept direct linage to our respective Cultures and Heritages like English, German, Spanish, Scotish etc. And we cannot mix them in aspects that are clearly different. And we all find it irritating when an imposter tries to claim our heritage as theirs. This is the case of Greeks with the Slavmacs. And the reason is not their love of the past but their desire to grab the Greek Lands somehow, sometime in the future! Look at the maps of the 'United Macedonia' they are openly promoting! 30% of modern Greece falls within their supposedly 'ethnic' lands domain. Are we to blame the Greeks for openly declaring this to be a Slavmac expansion claim! Few days back a Vodka company did an adv campaign in the US showing a map with half the USA lands as part of Mexico. A huge uproar resulted and the adv was promptly withdrawn. Imagine is this map was not published by a Vodka Company but by the Mexican Government! I am sure the F16 would had sent rolling, Not the well mannered legal Greek objections!
We don't know the origins of Ancient Macedonian! We cannot be for sure who they really were and were they came from! But the evidence we have is that they were integral parts of the Hellenic civilisation and they spread Hellenic ideals to the world they knew! They were no doubt mixed with others! But these others in turns espoused the Hellenic Civilisation! The Greeks of today have every right to feel the continuation of the Hellenic world! Not because their blood is purely Hellenic but because of their Cultural direct linage and because a pure blood is a term with no meaning! SlavMacs are clearly basically Slavs! They have no connection to the Ancient Macedonian Heritage! They can admire the Classical Helenic Civilisation of Macedonia as much as they like in the same way that anyone one of us can do! But to consider it theirs is just a smoke screen of Expansion and nothing else!
And all of us rather than cuddling the beast and pondering opening the Pandora's Box we should clearly and loudly voice our objections and affirm our justified stance that Greeks are Greeks, Bulgarians are Bulgarians, Albanians are Albanians and Slav Macs are Macedonians only by Geography!
και ακόμη
Well Richard if there is plenty of evidence that few present-day inhabitants are directly descended from the Ancient Greeks then I am sure you will agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that present day FYROMers have any relation with the Macedonians and that the vast evidence that the latter were part of the Hellenic World! Hence all this hot air about connecting FYROMers with Ancient Macedonians is cheap low level charlatanism for the village idiots! Of course we don't know the DNA structure of Ancient Greece to decide, and even if we had it you will see that the Ancient Greeks throughout the Classical Period were not as pure as we assume so asking the same for the modern is damn redundant! Nor the relation of AngloSaxon with the Basques will make the latter claiming Shakespeare or Henry Elisabeth and Nelson. Nor this implies that the present Day English are less English than the older! So here you have it! We are all Humans after all and we all relate one another somehow sometimes! Genetic research is largely irrelevant in judging Cultural and Political matters. The last time the issue was raised in the present day context was in the days of the Nazi-Aryans! The only one can claim purity in racial terms (the same you ask for present day Greeks) are few Horses in the Stables. Even Royal Houses are mixed and many bastards there exist too! The issue here is Civilisation and we have to be content that present Day Greeks are as Greeks as it can be! And in the same context FYROMers are basically Slavs without any connection nor any rights for their childish Macedonism as this somehow been part of their cultural inheritance even though they appear 1000 years after this Classical Period! I thought we had moved a bit from the Dark Ages and we can see white from the black!
My thesis is that all these I say are fairly trivial and the only validity in this context is that FYROMers deploy all these spurious historical or genetic arguments because fundamentally they think that the whole Macedonia is their exclusive domain! This is as historically unfounded as it is dangerous and needs to be addressed. Also their Human Right cries are entirely chaff as the case they are advancing is fundamentally baseless and flawed and their own Human Rights record back home is plainly appalling even though they have only 20 years of lifetime as a sovereign country!
Hence once again I feel that the Greeks are entirely right to act the way they are! As far as I am concerned they have my full support and I am sure that others feel this way once we understood the case and the arguments involved a bit better!
End of story.
Απο το ιδιο blogg, απαντηση FYROMιτη σε σχολιο Βουλγαρου.....θαυμαστε φασισμο...
....και αν δεν το ξερατε ήδη...μαθετε τωρα και αυτο....δεν μιλανε στη ΦΥΡΟΜια Βουλγαρικα.....οι Βουλγαροι μιλανε "Μακεδονικα"..........εχουν σαλταρει κανονικα απο την πολλη προπαγανδα
http://hill.blogactiv.eu/2008/04/07/whats-in-a-name-a-lot-it-seems/#comment-46
Dejan
Comment by Dejan 2008/04/12 at 04:55:17
todor its funny how stupid you are. i said i wont reply but your stupidity is compelling and funny. your poeple moved in to europe from asia, however my poeple have been their for 1000's of years. you got your language from us buddy your speaking macedonian its funny how you turkic asians idiots support your little greek buddies.
you dont even know what your on about todor, im suprised you and your country support these facist greeks, you should be on our side since we gave you the language you speak today.listen hear asian you came from asia adopted macedonian names and the language which is known very well with poeple who actually know what their talking about. you can only deny all where your culture comes from macedonia. all you racist pricks will have the tables turned and your continuos propaganda will turn on you. so go back to asia and dont visit this blog as it has nothing to do with you and you are embarasing yourself.
το blogg ειναι το παρακατω
http://hill.blogactiv.eu/2008/04/07/whats-in-a-name-a-lot-it-seems/#comment-46
και η απαντηση του Σουηδού
Stig Torben Johansen
Comment by Stig Torben Johansen 2008/04/12 at 12:22:12
Richard
Some time back I used to share some of your thoughts.
Not any longer!
I have to say straight away that I strongly now accept that the Greeks have a very valid case!
And I have every reason to believe that most of the upper echelons of Europe fundamentally share this position too! The final communiqué of recent NATO's summit wasn't the result of Greece pressure and all those involved in these knows perfectly well what I am speaking about.
And I suppose it's not rocket science to see why I and others have our changed position. Look in detail how and what the SlvMacs say here! Pay particular attention to the explicit RACIST Connotations openly expressed. Look at their unfounded megalomania! And it's all right if the funny bloke in the Streets of Skopje says so! You may smile and carry on. But Richard these kinds of things go on in much higher places in there! Speaking with officials holding very responsible places I have heard similar things:
How 'historically' is proven beyond reasonable doubt the direct lineage of present day SlavMacs to Alexander the Great. When I questioned them why all Ancient Macedonian always had written in Greek the answer comes back due to the fact they say the Ancient Macedonian knew foreign languages!!!!!!They do believe this cr..p Richard! They do!!!!And when they are probed why such an important civilisation never left a trace of their supposedly own different language they say that they are searching….Still haven't found anything!! LOL. So much so for their Great Macedonian Heritage!!! But they go on and on with this Megalomania which to my opinion would have reached Nazi proportions if it wasn't for their pathetic size and power base! If this wasn't the Balkans one could had stay to the amusing side of things but we have to be extra careful here and we should not allow this fanatical and unfounded behaviour of them to go on any longer!
Their Bulgarian ancestry is another of the much publicised case! You have seen the idiotic answers they give. They speak of Asian and African people with the most debasing of words! Yet they cannot answer straight elementary and basic questions as those posed by Todor! Their Genetic 'studies' proving that the Greeks are Ethiopians is not only an idiotic attempt to prove that the Greeks have no Relation to Hellenes but also speaks volumes of what they think of Africans or the niggers as they routinely referred them! What they are doing with Greek history and heritage is mirrored to what they are doing with Bulgarians. How on earth they mix Bulgarian and Greek history is beyond me and I think to any other sane person in the world! Especially when they claim that both belong to them in the first place!!!!!!!!
Their claims on Human rights are another one of their spurious beliefs. These very people are the 'champions' of the millions of oppressed 'Macedonians' beyond their borders yet they denied basic human rights to all those SlavMacs that happened to be gays, forcefully 'persuade' all those who want to declare themselves ethnically Bulgarians within their borders its not 'wise' to say so! And I haven't spoken about the Albanians yet!
It is well known truth that many Slavmacs that lived in Greece openly collaborated with the Nazis during WW". There are images and there are documents. They have committed well documented atrocities towards the Greek population during the time of Occupation. Particularly towards those Greeks who were refuges from Asia Minor after the 1922 exchange of population between Greece and Turkey. Even today the Slavmacs simply hate this strand of Greeks even though these people came from Hellenistic centres of the East where Ancient Macedonian presence is well documented. Hence these unfortunate people may be the more Macedonians of the lot! Anyway when the fortunes of WW2 changed, all those Slavmacs to save their skins turned communist and under Tito's guidance and support wanted to take the whole Greek Macedonia. Quite naturally Greece resisted and when the fate of their 'experiment' went pear shaped they left Greece to avoid the punishment coming. These were testing times for whole Europe. The numbers involved for those who escaped were of the order of 20-30,000 but quite obviously not the millions they claim. Nor what is left back in Greece are of any significance! Around 10,000 at most! They even now have a political party there called Vino Zito that never managed to get more than few thousands votes (5,000 ?) even though their political agenda was clearly this of 'oppressed Macedonians' . It is also amusing to see in the leadership of Vinho Zito Mr Voskopoulos has a cousin who is district governor of Florina and openly declares himself a Greek as well as Mr Lithoxou who as he says is of Greek- Albanian extraction. Mr Nekratzas another one of theirs is clearly a Greek Refuge from Asia Minor ie one of their supposedly arch enemies! If they were the millions oppressed I am sure you would have seen scenes of Tibet's proportions in the streets of Thessaloniki! So their paranoia on this respect is well substantiated.
It is also funny that all that all those SlavMacs could obtain unlimited access to the Greek Macedonia if they join the EU! And all the obstacles their stubborn and unreasonable behaviour is placing to this path makes us wonder if what they want is civilised access to the Greek Macedonia or creating the framework to claim it as rightfully theirs! We have to be very careful when we express support to them as so far has been translated as an open endorsement of their fantasies.
Richard we are all somehow genetically mixed! The same applies to the old or the moderns. When man meets a woman the outcome is mixed!!! Yet we have no problem to assume and accept direct linage to our respective Cultures and Heritages like English, German, Spanish, Scotish etc. And we cannot mix them in aspects that are clearly different. And we all find it irritating when an imposter tries to claim our heritage as theirs. This is the case of Greeks with the Slavmacs. And the reason is not their love of the past but their desire to grab the Greek Lands somehow, sometime in the future! Look at the maps of the 'United Macedonia' they are openly promoting! 30% of modern Greece falls within their supposedly 'ethnic' lands domain. Are we to blame the Greeks for openly declaring this to be a Slavmac expansion claim! Few days back a Vodka company did an adv campaign in the US showing a map with half the USA lands as part of Mexico. A huge uproar resulted and the adv was promptly withdrawn. Imagine is this map was not published by a Vodka Company but by the Mexican Government! I am sure the F16 would had sent rolling, Not the well mannered legal Greek objections!
We don't know the origins of Ancient Macedonian! We cannot be for sure who they really were and were they came from! But the evidence we have is that they were integral parts of the Hellenic civilisation and they spread Hellenic ideals to the world they knew! They were no doubt mixed with others! But these others in turns espoused the Hellenic Civilisation! The Greeks of today have every right to feel the continuation of the Hellenic world! Not because their blood is purely Hellenic but because of their Cultural direct linage and because a pure blood is a term with no meaning! SlavMacs are clearly basically Slavs! They have no connection to the Ancient Macedonian Heritage! They can admire the Classical Helenic Civilisation of Macedonia as much as they like in the same way that anyone one of us can do! But to consider it theirs is just a smoke screen of Expansion and nothing else!
And all of us rather than cuddling the beast and pondering opening the Pandora's Box we should clearly and loudly voice our objections and affirm our justified stance that Greeks are Greeks, Bulgarians are Bulgarians, Albanians are Albanians and Slav Macs are Macedonians only by Geography!
και ακόμη
Well Richard if there is plenty of evidence that few present-day inhabitants are directly descended from the Ancient Greeks then I am sure you will agree that there is no evidence whatsoever that present day FYROMers have any relation with the Macedonians and that the vast evidence that the latter were part of the Hellenic World! Hence all this hot air about connecting FYROMers with Ancient Macedonians is cheap low level charlatanism for the village idiots! Of course we don't know the DNA structure of Ancient Greece to decide, and even if we had it you will see that the Ancient Greeks throughout the Classical Period were not as pure as we assume so asking the same for the modern is damn redundant! Nor the relation of AngloSaxon with the Basques will make the latter claiming Shakespeare or Henry Elisabeth and Nelson. Nor this implies that the present Day English are less English than the older! So here you have it! We are all Humans after all and we all relate one another somehow sometimes! Genetic research is largely irrelevant in judging Cultural and Political matters. The last time the issue was raised in the present day context was in the days of the Nazi-Aryans! The only one can claim purity in racial terms (the same you ask for present day Greeks) are few Horses in the Stables. Even Royal Houses are mixed and many bastards there exist too! The issue here is Civilisation and we have to be content that present Day Greeks are as Greeks as it can be! And in the same context FYROMers are basically Slavs without any connection nor any rights for their childish Macedonism as this somehow been part of their cultural inheritance even though they appear 1000 years after this Classical Period! I thought we had moved a bit from the Dark Ages and we can see white from the black!
My thesis is that all these I say are fairly trivial and the only validity in this context is that FYROMers deploy all these spurious historical or genetic arguments because fundamentally they think that the whole Macedonia is their exclusive domain! This is as historically unfounded as it is dangerous and needs to be addressed. Also their Human Right cries are entirely chaff as the case they are advancing is fundamentally baseless and flawed and their own Human Rights record back home is plainly appalling even though they have only 20 years of lifetime as a sovereign country!
Hence once again I feel that the Greeks are entirely right to act the way they are! As far as I am concerned they have my full support and I am sure that others feel this way once we understood the case and the arguments involved a bit better!
End of story.
Απο το ιδιο blogg, απαντηση FYROMιτη σε σχολιο Βουλγαρου.....θαυμαστε φασισμο...
....και αν δεν το ξερατε ήδη...μαθετε τωρα και αυτο....δεν μιλανε στη ΦΥΡΟΜια Βουλγαρικα.....οι Βουλγαροι μιλανε "Μακεδονικα"..........εχουν σαλταρει κανονικα απο την πολλη προπαγανδα
http://hill.blogactiv.eu/2008/04/07/whats-in-a-name-a-lot-it-seems/#comment-46
Dejan
Comment by Dejan 2008/04/12 at 04:55:17
todor its funny how stupid you are. i said i wont reply but your stupidity is compelling and funny. your poeple moved in to europe from asia, however my poeple have been their for 1000's of years. you got your language from us buddy your speaking macedonian its funny how you turkic asians idiots support your little greek buddies.
you dont even know what your on about todor, im suprised you and your country support these facist greeks, you should be on our side since we gave you the language you speak today.listen hear asian you came from asia adopted macedonian names and the language which is known very well with poeple who actually know what their talking about. you can only deny all where your culture comes from macedonia. all you racist pricks will have the tables turned and your continuos propaganda will turn on you. so go back to asia and dont visit this blog as it has nothing to do with you and you are embarasing yourself.
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